Author Topic: [NYPD]_FABRY - Infraction appeal  (Read 874 times)

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Offline [NYPD]_FABRY

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[NYPD]_FABRY - Infraction appeal
« on: February 09, 2023, 06:34:19 pm »
Ban ID (if applicable)   None
Your in-game name   See above
Ban or infraction appeal? See above
Date and time of ban/infraction including timezone: This morning. Timezone unknown
Ban/infraction reason and details: Admin Dani. gave me a 1 week public service ban for alleged abuse of seasparrow, literally stating "Massive cop rule brakes"
Why was this ban/infraction wrongfully issued? Because the current seasparrow and rustler rules of engagement lack the so-called principle of legal certainty. It's not very clear what is allowed and what's not in relation to the use of these aircrafts.
What was the situation which led to this wrongful ban/infraction? What was happening? A few hours before the infraction, I saw suspect AllyLilly (not most wanted) getting into a car in Bayside and trying to evade my warnings to stop and get out of the vehicle. As she refused, I immediately opened fire to disable her car. After that, a few other fellow officers approached and we finally managed to detain her by the use of taser. Some other cops, whose nicknames I don't remember, shot her despite her status of non-threat. I did not shoot her.
Any witnesses that can vouch for you?   N/A
Any more information to provide?   
I think that the penalty was excessive and should have been (should be) substituted with a warning that explains the exact rules of engagement when using a seasparrow. I would not have done it if the current rules of engagement related to police aircrafts were clear. Proof of this is the response of Dani. stating that if you enter a rustler, the popup warns you that you can shoot at MWs only OR to disable a vehicle driven by an orange suspect, regardless of their status of wanted or most wanted; actually, if you enter a rustler, you'll see that the popup tells you that you're allowed to shoot at most wanted suspects or at vehicles containing most wanted suspects ONLY. So, I guess that Dani. was only partially right. I guess that if an admin has not clear in his/her mind what the rules are, why would I be? This seems like an ex-post and not an ex-ante deduction, but I assure you it's the latter. In fact, I had already inferred the uncertainty of these rules way before this event because other admins (I don't remember their names) had provided in the last few weeks other evasive and unclear responses as to the correct usage of police aircrafts' weaponry. When I found myself in jail this morning, I immediately asked the /helpme admin to explain to me the reasons of the ban and he told me "I'll be honest with you. The rules of engagement for seasparrow and rustler are not clear at the moment."
I also discussed this issue with Dani. himself and he told me that the current popups are old and should be subject to update. Then the server crashed as usual and I'm unfortunately here making my appeal.
I hereby request that my job infraction be removed for lack of legal grounds and admins to revise their punishment policy.. it's not the first time I get punished and immediately "unpunished" (and refunded) by admins. This is like the third time. Please assess each issue by using ad-hoc standards and avoid taking for granted that somebody with criminal (pso) records like me should be punished immediately without an accurate assessment of the causes that led to the presumed rule infringement in the first place.
I'm confident that this thing can be dealt with peacefully.
Best regards

Dani.'s official and partially right response at the player complaint can be found here: https://mikescnr.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.0.html
« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 07:26:02 pm by [NYPD]_FABRY »

Offline AllyLily

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Re: [NYPD]_FABRY - Infraction appeal
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2023, 08:32:25 pm »
Some other cops, whose nicknames I don't remember, shot her despite her status of non-threat. I did not shoot her.
It was martin_delgado, and he got his penalty ingame following my ingame report shortly thereafter.

As for the substance, I do agree that the rules should be made clearer and textdraws be updated, but generally not knowing the law is not a good excuse for breaking it. After all, the rule change was confirmed over Discord as far back as last fall and states in no uncertain terms what is and isn't allowed. Now, I don't know if it warrants a week's public service ban, but I won't contest it as this is up to staff in this case. They probably know your track record more than I do.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 08:39:08 pm by AllyLily »

Offline xxzc1g

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Re: [NYPD]_FABRY - Infraction appeal
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2023, 09:49:00 pm »
just wanna reply here to make things clear

this guy is a rule breaker everyone knows this and he always playing fool that he don't know the rules and get unbanned
and that happened many times as he mentioned so yeah

sorry for replying here

Offline [NYPD]_FABRY

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Re: [NYPD]_FABRY - Infraction appeal
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2023, 11:43:00 pm »
It was martin_delgado, and he got his penalty ingame following my ingame report shortly thereafter.

As for the substance, I do agree that the rules should be made clearer and textdraws be updated, but generally not knowing the law is not a good excuse for breaking it. After all, the rule change was confirmed over Discord as far back as last fall and states in no uncertain terms what is and isn't allowed. Now, I don't know if it warrants a week's public service ban, but I won't contest it as this is up to staff in this case. They probably know your track record more than I do.

Ignorantia legis non excusat, you're right, but on a scale level, what counts more should be the certainty of a rule. How can I follow that if, instead of not knowing it, I'm just not sure about its validity? Besides, I don't have discord so I cannot know what you're referring to...
If I were you, I would just cancel the complaint and ask admins to, at least, reduce the penalty to 1 day. It's undoubtedly excessive for all the above-mentioned facts that have been taken into consideration so far.

Offline puuro

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Re: [NYPD]_FABRY - Infraction appeal
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2023, 01:53:14 am »
I'm currently forum banned for shit posting.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2023, 02:34:03 am by win »

Offline AllyLily

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Re: [NYPD]_FABRY - Infraction appeal
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2023, 03:04:58 am »
If I were you, I would just cancel the complaint and ask admins to, at least, reduce the penalty to 1 day. It's undoubtedly excessive for all the above-mentioned facts that have been taken into consideration so far.
I'm not in a position to tell admins what to do, but seeing that you've refunded the Elegy & its mods and have gone as far as paying extra in moral damages, I believe the lesson must have been learned, so I don't think a week's public service ban is the optimal solution. (From now on, please avoid going after players that are escaping prison that you broke the rules to get them into)

Offline howl

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Re: [NYPD]_FABRY - Infraction appeal
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2023, 04:02:53 am »
just wanna reply here to make things clear

this guy is a rule breaker everyone knows this and he always playing fool that he don't know the rules and get unbanned
and that happened many times as he mentioned so yeah

sorry for replying here

Do not post here again, this is irrelevant info.

Offline Dani.

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Re: [NYPD]_FABRY - Infraction appeal
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2023, 04:35:02 am »
The rules of the Sea Sparrow never changed and as you are saying If you prove that you've been told by an Admin/Helper that Sea Sparrow's rules are outdated I will revoke your Job ban right now, You told me about the popup appears when you enter the Rustler and it says Attack only MWs I told you that's outdated as just the Rustler's rules has to be changed, The rules I sent in your complaint is the current Cops Aircraft rules and it is confirmed by our Operations Manager .

Offline [NYPD]_FABRY

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Re: [NYPD]_FABRY - Infraction appeal
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2023, 11:06:15 am »
Unfortunately, I did not make screenshots. It was way back then. Even though, you can check in the chatlog the conversation I had with a helper admin around half an hour before posting this topic, in which he confirmed that the current police aircrafts rules are confusing and that he did not know how come I could be banned for 1 week from public service. Anyway, this case also lost the condition of admissability due to the fact that also the claimant revoked her willingness to have me punished as I refunded her. Please let's just end this here and forget it. I think that now I know that you can't shoot oranges with seasparrow

Ps: the name of the admin that told me what I quoted above is unknown. I asked him but he wouldn't tell me his name.. he just told me "I don't have the powers. I just deal with the help center"

Offline Combean0007

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Re: [NYPD]_FABRY - Infraction appeal
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2023, 05:02:19 pm »
Quote
avoid taking for granted that somebody with criminal (pso) records like me should be punished immediately without an accurate assessment of the causes that led to the presumed rule infringement in the first place.
I'd like to state that past offenses are only used to hand out more severe punishements, but they are never used a ground for punishment itself. In this case, proof of your guilt was provided and it was clear as day.

Quote
it's not the first time I get punished and immediately "unpunished" (and refunded) by admins. This is like the third time.
As a staff team, we try to judge each situation as best as we can. Obviously sometimes we fail to do so, which results in normal players suffering. And I, personally, apologize for when it happens.


Quote
actually, if you enter a rustler, you'll see that the popup tells you that you're allowed to shoot at most wanted suspects or at vehicles containing most wanted suspects ONLY.
That is true, that pop-up needs an update. Unfortunately, most rule changes are done by Management team in the matter of minutes, while Development team, Mike to be precise, has to release a whole server update, even with such a minor fix. In reality, these changes don't happen simultaneously most of the time. If you wonder, it's already acknowledged and proper request is sent to Mike.
However, we do post rule changes in the discord which allows players to stay up-to-date. Keeping track of discord makes the chance of missing/confusing rule changes lower. I highly recommend you to join/check it more often.

I'll lift the job ban.

ACCEPTED.